Usher: Hey Deak, there were two priest. They both live in different states and both of them have gambling habits. They were both caught with their hand in the church cookie jar! What do you think the church did to them!
Deacon: Turn them in, defrock them?
Usher: The first one got administrative leave, the second is doing mass while undergoing counseling. First there was pedophilia, looks like the second plague of the Catholic church is gambling.
Roselle priest placed on administrative leave
St. Walter pastor accused of gambling tens of thousands in church funds
By Russell Working | Chicago Tribune reporter
4:56 PM CDT, July 30, 2008
Church officials have placed a Roselle priest on administrative leave after he allegedly misappropriated $112,000 in church cash to fund a gambling habit, a spokesman said Wednesday.
Catholic Diocese of Joliet Bishop Peter Sartain told worshipers at St. Walter Parish’s weekend masses that an audit of bank records turned up evidence that Rev. John Regan had taken the money, spokesman Doug Delaney said. Read whole story here
WHITE PLAINS, N.Y. (AP) — A long-serving pastor of a Catholic parish is under investigation for using church money to feed a gambling habit and has been permanently removed, the chancellor of the Archdiocese of New York said Sunday.The Rev. Patrick Dunne of Our Lady of Sorrows Church in White Plains took a “very significant amount of church money” because of a “very powerful” gambling addiction, Monsignor William Belford told parishioners.Belford told the congregation that he met with Dunne last year after the archdiocese’s finance office told him that undocumented checks were cashed at Our Lady of Sorrow just before Thanksgiving.Dunne, who had been pastor at Our Lady of Sorrows since 1991, left the church right after Christmas. He is undergoing counseling at a rehabilitation center, where he offers Mass daily, Belford said. His home telephone mailbox was full and was not accepting messages on Sunday. Read whole article here
Usher: Hey Deak, someone else actually thinks like we do!!!!!!
Deacon: Go Rusty Go Rusty Go!!!!!!
Usher: He actually put 2 million dollars of his
own money where his mouth is!
Deacon: Too bad you don’t have more money and less mouth!
MinistryWatch featured on 20/20 with John Stossel:
MinistryWatch.com was recently interviewed on ABC’s 20/20
with John Stossel regarding the lack of financial transparency
among some televangelists. A transcript of the interview is
available (pdf) »HERE.« Please also see our amplification of the
story »HERE« and a personal note from Rusty Leonard »HERE«.
Usher: Hey Deak, here’s another one of the top 10 “Most influential churches in America” according to The Church Report http://www.thecronline.com/mag_article.php?mid=672&mname=July - and it appears they don’t have any desire whatsoever to tell you where your money goes!
I stumbled upon this forum where internals including those who are asking for accountability have a very lively discussion - apparently Mr. Cymbala answers to NO ONE……
Some excerpts by the first guy who is asking for accountability (obviously a member) and then one of his internal people who comments on the site:
Paul White:Like I said- He’s got you all hoodwinked. While you were working there did you ever see a financial statement that was made available to the public? The answer is no, you never have. So what that he GIVES ALL the proceeds of his books back to the church, he’s said plenty of times from the pulpit that he recieves no salary, so my question to you is- how then does he support himself? The bottom line is this, he has NO RIGHT at all not to disclose financial info. You obviously think that he is above being held accountable thereby deifing him.
Anonymous Insider: I hate to say it but Paul White is 100% Correct. BT is in financial trouble. A recent meeting where the Financial Pastor told the leaders “please do not share this with anyone, but once we pay the mortgage we have no money left in the bank”. Some of the leaders in the room suggested sharing the situation with the congregation but The Financial Pastor said he does not even share his financial matters at home with his children so why would he share it with the leaders or the church. They are currently undergoing a construction project worth appx 250,000.00 for childrens ministry space at thier 180 location. Pastor Cymbala has become a fund raiser and in my 25+ years at that church he has never begged for money as he does now. The financail pressure is killing him. He has lost his annointing. In a recent Leaders Meeting July 2008 he told the leaders “This is my church, Things will be done my way, If you do not like it there is the door”. “I do not trust any of the leaders and If you think I am going to hand over my church that my wife and I built for 30 years you have another thing coming” “There is only one choir in the church MY WIFE’S CHOIR”. “I am sending my spies into your meetings to bring back to me reports so you better beware”.
Usher: Hey Deak, the North Point megachurch has figured the marketing out. Even one of their “lieutenants” shamelessly admits it on a blog. They’re buildilng video venues and charging 250K to other churches. Some of the new convert churches are even leaving traditional denominations. Now that’s an interesting way of stealing christians!
Deacon: Who needs a business plan and investors. Just open up a video church and fund your face all over the world. Warren publishes his in books, sells sermons and then has presidential debates at his church to get himself even more exposure. Very Oprahesque if you ask me. And how does he get all those people to come and worship in front of a screen?
Usher: Maybe he’s selling options on the side. I smell a new network and ad dollars. Maybe even a listing for Wall Street!
The Chick-fil-A Church
How “video venues” are helping megachurches franchise.
…..In a blog post, one of Stanley’s lieutenants compared the job of running a video venue to operating a franchise of another Christian-led business: Chick-fil-A. “Just like that Chick-fil-A owner/operator, I’m here in Nashville to open up our franchise and run it right,” wrote Eddie Johnson. “I believe in my company and what they are trying to ’sell.’ “
Johnson told me that he never anticipated the vitriolic response his blog post would produce. (”This is where ‘Church, Inc.’ takes us,” wrote one commenter; another called Johnson the anti-Christ.) But he stands by his analogy. Most residents of Nashville, Tenn.—he estimates around 71 percent—don’t attend church regularly. If it takes a name-brand preacher to put butts in seats, so be it.
…While only a handful of churches can afford Buckhead’s $250,000 high-def system, it costs relatively little to project a DVD of the home church’s sermon from last week.
Usher: Hey Deak, check this NY Times article out on church finances
Deacon: I read it. So how does a megachurch televangelist determine what is excessive?
Usher: I think a Rolls Royce might be considered excessive…..but then again, I’m just a buzzard
The Associated Press
Published: November 11, 2007
ATLANTA: An Atlanta megachurch took in $69 million (€47 million) in 2006, according to a financial statement the church’s minister released in response to a Senate investigation into him and five other well-known televangelists.
The Rev. Creflo Dollar disclosed the World Changers Church International’s financial information to The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, but said the money he spends is his own.
Dollar said his income comes from personal investments, including businesses and real estate ventures. But the church gave him a Rolls Royce, which he mainly uses for special occasions, he said.
“Without a doubt, my life is not average,” he said. “But I’d like to say, just because it is excessive doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong.”
Usher: Hey Deak, check these posts out - they’re for real! It’s for real. I promise!
Deacon: Hmmmmm. And I thought you were just making those T-shirt stats up!
http://www.highlandadventist.org/Where%20Does%20the%20Tithe%20Go.pdf (15% goes to ministry - all else goes into someone’s pocket for the 15% of ministry they render!) This is the highest percentage of ministry/total budget of them all! Pastor, retirement, staff and education for staff = 85% of budget!
Usher: Hey Deak, I stumbled upon this brilliant site that critiques not-so-Godly hymns - I knew there was something that bothered me about some of those old things, and all the time, I jus thought it was the dated music….
Deacon: Irreverence doesn’t really bother you, does it Usher?
Usher: Not really, so I wrote one of my own hymns that fits a church I know…
Oh God rain down more points for my visa
So I can compete with my neighbor Lisa
Just think how great my witness will be
When the heathen are impressed by your gifts for me
Our witness to be seen at the grandest of shows
When we’re adorned with sequens, crosses and bows
The mayor, the judge and the priests will all see
How Christlike we are in our prosperity
We’ll dine with the stars because they surely need you
We’ll say grace with the famous and toast at the ‘fest
We can witness to the finest of celebrity fame
Oh God give us more and more and more in your name
Excerpt: A frequent priority of the local congregation is to attract people to come to the physical property of the church so as to inlcude the “pagans” in the life of the church. This model began with the Roman Empire, especially after Constantine’s conversion and Christianity became the official Roman religion.
……In previous years, I invited people to church when I met them, thinking in that way they will hear the gospel. I began to see that I was giving the church an unfair advantage. I was asking them to come to my turf, where I was the leader, where I stand and speak while they sit and listen. It was a lack of courage that led me to rely on bringing them to a place where I was the boss and they were the servants. What I had to learn to do was speak the gospel on their terms — in their homes, in their boats — as a friend and as an equal. — Mark Peske, missionary to the Ojibwa.
Usher: Question for you: How can a Constantinian church keep sending out “church planters” expecting them to be different? Aren’t they just building “mini-constantine’s”? How does one who wishes to truly be missional unlearn their constantinian ways and truly become a light in their community? And if you reply as we think you will, how does one support the church planter in such a way that they don’t revert back to the old power model and their old ways which they have been steeped in? The traditional church cannot and will not give up it’s powerbase and allow decentralization no matter what! Aren’t the two forces totally opposing? Is it not the “napster” effect to the music industry or the “skype” effect to long-distance telecommunications?
Deacon: Our argument is that this is virtually impossible using today’s theology and students of Constantinian ways. Entire denominations are founded on this, how in the world can they attempt such an undertaking, though many have programs in place? Shouldn’t we be sending people into non-Constantinian environments for them to truly become missional? We westerners have a tendency to simply “term it”, “claim it” and “preach it” without any foundation other than someone else’s book, teachings or opinions.
Summary: The Constantinian cannot play missional without dismembering itself, can it? We want to change the church, but to do this would mean to destroy livelihoods of pastors and church staff and fight about who is to receive the monies from the sale of the real estate (though this would be a great problem to have as it would mean the group had made the right decision). But really, the diaper-wearing christians will defend their institutional church and pastor and never give up their “binkys”, their custom-fitting “huggies”, their 1-hour-and-run services and their ability to write a check to free their guilt and not have to be bothered with getting their hands dirty or being weaned off their grace-laced formula.
The Constantinian model MUST be supported by demanding tithe (substantiated by cut-and-paste scripture), it must grow in membership to support the programs the diaper-wearers demand of it. It must continue to build bigger buildings to keep up with the cost of programs, adding youth pastors and the cost of living for the staff. It must be a central top-down power model and in order to function, it must be headed up by those with college degrees from seminary. We are the ones who have demanded it (or gotten hooked on it and swallowed it and simply come back for more and more of the milk).
Usher: Hey Deak - another cut & paste preacher using whatever scripture fits for her sermon:
Taken from a site in blogsphere:
When the authorities come and take your children, your freedom and your possions: = Keep your Tongue - (1 Peter 3:10-11, James 3:2-14)
When loved ones die at the hands of evil: = Encourage others (Romans 14:19)
When the gang on the block shoots a child in your neighborhood - Don’t allow the actions of others to determine how you will treat them (Romans 12:16-19)
When your parent molests you and ruins your life and everything intimate - Get rid of bitterness (Hebrews 12:14-15)
When a business partner chooses to partner with the solution that supports his point of view instead of yours and breaks the partnership sending you to the poor house - Be a Peacemaker (James 3:17-18 )
When you are left with nothing and you and your family have been put out on the street - Realize that we have peace with God (Romans 5:1-2)
When your husband comes home and tells you he’s having an affair and he’s going to leave you and your kids - Control your thoughts (Phil 4:4-9, 2 Cor 10: 3-5, Isaiah 26:3)
When 911 takes your husband and you are left a widow, a single mom and you have no pedigree to pursue the only life you have ever known - Let Peace Rule in your life (Col 3:15)
Deacon: When will these people ever get that they don’t have the answers? Not one single answer for what God is doing in an individual’s life! Taking scripture out of context and giving people 10 steps is the most idiotic thing a pastor can do. She should rename herself “Job’s friend”.
Usher: Hey Deak, I’ve figured out how to tolerate sermons - I actually look forward to them!
Deacon: How, I’d love to hear it!
Usher: Well, because we don’t take them seriously anyway, I pretend the pastors are comedians
Deacon: That’s kind of hard to do when they’re dry or serious
Usher: Not really, if you can’t do anything with the sermon material (you really gotta be sleeping in most cases), then I just imagine what the people in the pews are really thinking:
Chester the Elder: “Man I wish he’d just shut up - How many different ways can a guy use to illustrate a single point? Oh well, glad we were late and we ended up in the back - I’m starvin’ and Martha made muffins for afterwards - I’ll be the first in line for fellowship hour ”
Stacey the 20-something: “I wonder if he’s wearing boxers or briefs?”
Mrs. Jones the gossip ”Do you think he prayed this morning? What do you think he prayed for? - I’ll bet it went something like: “Lord, please tell Mrs. Smith I really don’t want her damned opinion on my tie, the worship or the sermon, ugh!”
Mr. Williams the CEO: “He doesn’t preach like a true Republican, I bet he’s a card-carrying liberal!
Steven the junior high youth leader: “How does the choir survive the pastor’s farts behind the pulpit?”
Mrs. James - the school superintendant: “Wonder if he was a jock, a junkie, a bully or a nerd when he was in school?”
Usher: You can text back and forth with someone and bet on things like - how long he’ll go over the 1 hour mark - We bet over and under minutes, how many people will fall asleep and when, stuff like that.
Deacon: That’s kind of disrespectful isn’t it?
Usher: Last time I checked, respect is warranted by Christ and no other….remember Deak, the “church-that-man-built” is all about tradition, pomp and circumstance and not much else. You and me are the real church. Makin’ fun of what man has built is no big deal - it’s truly laughing at ourselves. And remember, it’s all about the material, Deak, It’s all about the material.
Usher: Hey Deak, you ever listen to Reggie McNeal?
Deacon: No, what’s he about
Usher: In this great speak, he talks about airports and churches
Deacon: And…
Usher: Well, he talks about how the church should really be a terminal, kind of like an airport - serving as a stop-over. Instead the church has become the destination - kind of like an airport without any gates - Best analogy I ever heard on the condition of today’s church - plus he’s funny and looks like Carrol O’Connor
Usher: Time, Deak, Time! With the Internet, they can prepare their sermon from thousands and thousands of sermons and ideas posted, cut-and-paste and then do what they really want to do.
Deacon: What do they really want to do Usher?
Usher: Play golf, sleep, go out to eat, shop, pursue the American Dream - did I miss anything?
Usher: Deak, what a novel approach - detox for pastors!
Deacon: Yeah, but isn’t it just like traditional detox - doesn’t work until the church leaders admit they have a problem and seek help?
Usher: That’s easy, when they refuse, we’ll just stage an “intervention” and extract the errant pastors from the “church that man built” and put ‘em through detox!
Deacon
Usher
